zaterdag, december 13, 2008


Klimaatprobleem

Het klimaatprobleem lijkt in eerste instantie vooral een probleem voor klimaat-wetenschappers. Weerkundigen dus. Maar een gevolg van de waargenomen en nog verwachte wereldwijde opwarming is het smelten van grote hoeveelheden poolijs. Klimatologen weten daar natuurlijk niets of weinig van af, maar natuurkundigen en andere 'ijskundigen' proberen zich daarin te verdiepen. Vervolgens krijg je te maken met een zeespiegelstijging die je zult moeten opvangen. Klimatologen weten daar al helemaal niets van af, daar moet je waterbouwkundigen voor hebben. Maar voordat er echt iets gebeurt aan het uitstoten van broeikasgassen en het bestrijden van de effecten daarvan, zal het grote publiek overtuigd moeten zijn van de kostbare noodzaak daarvan. En het grote publiek is niet overtuigd van die noodzaak. Men ziet de urgentie niet in. De zon schijnt lekker. De kachel brandt lekker. We rijden lekker in onze auto's. Het leven is goed zo.

Ook de film van Al Gore heeft dat tot nu toe niet echt kunnen veranderen. De grote vraag die dus eerst beantwoord moet worden: Hoe overtuig je het publiek? En dat is een psychologisch en communicatiekundig probleem.

Eigenlijk gaat er aan die vraag nog een belangrijke vraag vooraf. Is het grote publiek inderdaad nog steeds niet overtuigd?

In dat verband kwam ik op de nieuwssite van de BBC de onderstaande discussielijst (hier) tegen. (Ik probeer hem te linken, maar het is onduidelijk of de BBC die discussie op haar site laat staan. Oude BBC-discussies kon ik niet terugvinden.)

Ik geef eerst het item waar de discussie mee werd opgestart. Daarna geef ik de bijdragen in volgorde van 'door de lezers aanbevolen'. Omdat de lijst ondertussen (13/12/2008 12:49) al 10 webpagina's lang is, beperk ik me tot de "aanbevolen" reacties met een klein aantal van de eerste reacties met 0 aanbevelingen. (Op basis waarvan de reacties met 0 aanbevelingen zijn geordend, is me niet duidelijk.)

Wat ik in de discussie 'zie', is dat vooral reacties die erg kritisch zijn ten opzichte van de EU hoog scoren, terwijl men die klimaatproblemen nog niet echt serieus neemt. Zelfs de minst populaire bijdragen zijn nog niet erg duidelijk over de noodzaak van klimaatmaatregelen.

Een probleem bij die ordening op 'door de lezers aanbevolen' is dat de laatste opgestuurde bijdragen korter op de site staan dan de eerste. Dit vertekent dus die ordening.

Een andere probleem is dat het natuurlijk om een select publiek gaat. Lang niet iedereen leest dit soort discussies op een 'saaie' BBC-site en verder moet je eerst ook nog eens registreren, want de selectie nog groter maakt.

Hoewel de ordening dus niet perfect is en het om een select publiek gaat, lijkt de totaalindruk me onmiskenbaar. Men ziet die noodzaak van allerhande dure en ingrijpende klimaatmaatregelen in overgrote meerderheid niet.

En dat laat zien dat het klimaatprobleem op dit moment merkwaardig genoeg nog vooral een communicatieprobleem is.


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Is the EU compromising on climate change?

EU leaders in Brussels have reached have agreed a deal on tackling climate change. Will the new measures work?

The plan sets out how 27 member-countries will cut carbon emissions by 20% by 2020.

But critics pointed to concessions made to some nations, saying they would lessen the long-term impact of the package.

Scientists say carbon dioxide emissions need to be cut by 25-40% by 2020 for there to be a reasonable chance of avoiding dangerous climate change.

Do you think the EU leaders have given too many concessions to secure the climate change deal? Do you live in one of the EU countries? What kind of climate changes have you noticed recently in your area?

Read the full story

Published: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 09:48 GMT 09:48 UK
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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 11:33 GMT 11:33 UK

Have you noticed that it used to be called global warming?

Now that they've discovered that it's not warming at all it suddenly becomes climate change.

I've got a better phrase - fraudulent taxation. And as usual the EU are right at the heart of it.

[chiptheduck], England, a suburb of Brussels

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:17 GMT 13:17 UK

Is the EU compromising on climate change?

The EU compromises on everything - except MEPs expenses and the democratic right of the people to decide whether they want a supersate.

[chiptheduck], England, a suburb of Brussels

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 11:59 GMT 11:59 UK

They should all be ashamed of themselves for still promoting the now thoroughly discredited 'global warming (except it isn't!)/climate change' tax and control scam. The sooner it is all diluted to destruction the better for all of us. It does not help giving them the oxygen and respect of publicity, either.
JD.

jonathan Dickson, London, United Kingdom

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:53 GMT 13:53 UK

The earth's climate is cyclical. The Romans introduced aubergines, courgettes and grapevines to Britain 2,000 years ago. Personally, I can't wait for it to be warm enough in January for me to ride my scooter to work in my cozzie.

Neil Probert, Cernusco Sul Naviglio, Italy

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 12:42 GMT 12:42 UK

The EU is just a undemocratic, corrupt, expensive and bureaucratic waste of time and the UK should get out before more of our taxpayer's money is wasted and the whole gargantuan monstrosity grinds to a halt. From personal experience as a IT manger I have found that the chances of getting agreement on anything decreases exponentially as the number of people attending a meeting increases.

Rog J, Portsmouth

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:01 GMT 13:01 UK

I'm what's called the 'average citizen'; without any financial stake in this issue. But frankly, I am highly dissatisfied with the way politicians deal with climate change. Nearly every round of negotiations ends in a series of compromises. It's time to grow up! Only call yourself leaders when you wake up to the fact that implementing significant changes now, will prove to be a major advantage in the future, both in regards to sustainable climate, new green industries and the way humans interact

Peter morrison, Copenhagen

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 10:18 GMT 10:18 UK

The collapse of the US auto industry and their subsidiaries in Europe, should cut greenhouse emissions. Millions will be unemployed, but hey, targets are targets, and the green lobby is king, and should be overjoyed.

Bert Trautmann

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:53 GMT 13:53 UK

There is no need for any of this deliberation - it's just another glorious gravy-train for the politicians and scientists. The fact is that there is no evidence at all - and I don't count the results of computer modelling as evidence - that increasing carbon dioxide levels cause warming. The case for human-generated global warming is based on bad science. On the contrary, there are very good scientific reasons to suppose there is no such link.

Captain Invisible, Cheltenham, UK, United Kingdom

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 12:36 GMT 12:36 UK

anyone who believes that 'leaders' will agree to take the necessary level of action on climate change are deluded.

it will be down to the next generation to break the current spin cycle of 'move towards agreeing to begin talks on seeking a solution' mold

because the next generation will be living in a much more dangerous world.

thanks baby boomers - you gave us a lot of good things, but it isn't fair to leave us with this mess!

[DeportLittleBritons], Peterborough, United Kingdom

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 14:17 GMT 14:17 UK

Is the EU compromising? I certainly hope so! The last thing European industry needs in a recession is more "green taxes", though if enough factories close I guess the targets will be met.

Ian Bannen, United Kingdom

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:53 GMT 13:53 UK

I find all the GW/CC hot air about "saving the planet" to be the most idiotic mistruth ever perpretrated on the publuic - whether or not we cut greenhouse gases, the planet will survive, with or without us, but to survive we all need to rethink our lifestyles unless we are prepared to face the unpleasant consequences.

Everyone knows in their hearts that politicians will lie through their teeth when wanting to raise taxes. Will any of the tax money ever be spent on countering GW/CC?

NO WAY.

Peter Marton, Middlesbrough, United Kingdom

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 14:42 GMT 14:42 UK

Compromised? My word no. Having written and championed Kyoto, and now proclaiming a new "target" to lead the world; the EU has never compromised in leading the world - in talk. The fact that their outputs have actually increased since Kyoto, excepting Labour's imaginative efforts at finding inventive ways to redo the calculations is indicative of their afliction for talk rather than action. I would suspect the EU's highest hot air output must be over Brussels...

[PortoBelloDutch]

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 12:46 GMT 12:46 UK

"What kind of climate changes have you noticed recently in your area?" you ask.

Well, the weather, after a few milder winters, has been particularly cold this December.

Climate, however, changes much more slowly than the span of a human life span. Always has, always will, no matter how much we are taxed by politicians pretending they can prevent it.

Nevertheless, it still makes sense to research clean, renewable energy and to stop polluting the atmosphere.

Jack, Edinburgh

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 14:17 GMT 14:17 UK

Of course everyone is comprising on the environment. They refuse to acknowledge the main problem......too many people.

Since they aren't willing to address too many people, they sacrifice the environment, because that is the only alternative.

We have about 40 yrs. until we enter the era of world wide food shortages. No more. Not much of a window, in which to convince the world, of what they need to do.

Rick McDaniel, Lewisville, TX USA

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:04 GMT 13:04 UK

"EU leaders are hoping to reach agreement on cutting greenhouse gas emissions today..."

So, finally, they will shut up.

20 percent emissions reduction: what a joke.

marcus marcuse

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 12:24 GMT 12:24 UK

I wish somebody could tell me when climate started warming - sorry changing - and at what temperature they aim to hold it at.

It seems weird, not to say fraudulent, to be forced to rearrange all our personal behaviours and economies without being told what target we are aiming for.

Lord Wreath, Offwhite City,

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:38 GMT 13:38 UK

How much did this result cost to the tax payers?
Where this 260bn will come from and where it goes to?

Tibor TK, Neuss

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 11:49 GMT 11:49 UK

It doesn't matter how much quibbling the EU does because there is a hidden time-frame. God holds this time in his hand. If the world fails to act within this time-frame, those who are now quibbling and those who never had the chance to quibble will be resting in Davey Jones' locker; or dying of thirst, hunger or some other deprivation, wishing to God that they had done something instead of quibbling. So, go right ahead and quibble, but look! The the fingers of God are opening...

Regina-Gabrielle Berry, Toronto, Canada

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 13:18 GMT 13:18 UK

Climate change is an important issue, quickly followed by climate control.

I have do not doubt in my mind that the brilliant people in this world can come up with something alot better than a big group of suits could -enter EU- . Governmental funding for things like pollution , in any country or union, has always struck me as a bit crooked. But who knows. Maybe a little can go a long way for the suffering global economy and long since suffering natural world.

Bring back the EV. simple?

[jgrubes], Cleveland, United States

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Added: Friday, 12 December, 2008, 10:23 GMT 10:23 UK

Politics are ever imperfect, and inter-state agreements even more so.

Simply demanding massive cuts in emissions is folly, even if probably necessary. Yes, contradictive, I know.

[Spironline], Denmark

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 10:44 GMT 10:44 UK

United States, China, Japan, India, South Korea and Australia, account for around half the globe's greenhouse gases (6 countries!)... my geography is pretty bad, but i'm sure none of these countries are even in the EU!!

Dinesh Patel, London, United Kingdom

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 10:09 GMT 10:09 UK

A Spanish government minister said years ago that while Britain has an army of civil servants seeking how to ensure EU fishing laws were enforced, the Spanish looked for the loopholes.

The same concept applies to the Indians and the Chinese on GW/CC. While the EU laws makes home production more expensive the Indians and Chinese are ignoring the guidelines to try to keep their industries in work in a worldwide recession.

How nice to be so GW/CC PC as you make your own people unemployed.

Peter Marton, Middlesbrough, United Kingdom

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 05:29 GMT 05:29 UK

I find it particularly galling that the huge bureaucratic EU machine should be talking about GW/CC, when that organisation itself is one of the worst destroyers of the planets ecology, tens of thousands of trees are cut down every year to feed its gargantuan appetite for paper, destroying forests, reducing natural CO2 removal, which increases GW/CC.

Talk about shooting itself in the foot.

Peter Marton, Middlesbrough, United Kingdom

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 09:50 GMT 09:50 UK

World temperature changes are cyclical. The climate change agenda is a scam. It's not about climate change, it's about carbon taxes. In effect, it's a tax on breathing.

Do your own research and you'll see that a lot of the so called "scientists" who put their name to this issue are nothing of the sort. There are many, many respected scientists who try to speak out about this but are kept silent through intimidation or censorship.

Don't believe everything you are told to be fact!

Dave Whiting, Newcastle upon Tyne

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 09:36 GMT 09:36 UK

No person in any government will put his / her name to anything that may lead to the loss of his / her job , or loss of being in " power" , so i think nothing will be done ..unless the planet suddenly throws a wobbly and scares us all ...

elfreda dean

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 08:13 GMT 08:13 UK

With a bit of luck this is the tide beginning to turn against the myth of so-called climate "change".

There may be hope for real science yet.

Geoff V

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 07:48 GMT 07:48 UK

I find the whole business of climate change a huge joke when I see that the UK now has got ground level coal mines fully operational. it's a farce. In 12 years does anybody really believe there will be any reduction in pollution with new runways planned? With coal being mined on the surface? With some European countries billowing smoke ad lib? it is farcical. What about millions of xmas lights when they tell us to turn off standby's? I got a 1l car so I have done my bit. Joy

Joy Pattinson, Switzerland

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 07:12 GMT 07:12 UK

No. Look, the EU should no compromise on pollution but the whole Global Warming hype is just that hype. It's amazing how little people actually do there own research on the subject of Global Warming. There has been decades of study and research on climate and almost every study predicted this warming trend, the trend is set to last another year then we shall see a cooling trend. Remember the Ozone Scare? Where mankind was the cause of the lack of ozone, wasn't true but people believe it,

Mike Daly, Coral Gables, FL, United States

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 05:53 GMT 05:53 UK

The let the world burn while I am happy in my selfish greed brigade must be laughing laughing laughing.
These politicians are worse than useless. Clear the whole lot out and bring in intelligent people instead of these vain corporate puppets. Europe should have the biggest silicon chip manufacturing for solar panels in the world. What has it got? Everything dirty.
If Poland doesn't want to play ball kick them out of Europe. And the same to all those who don't climb on board the new economy.

Toners Bruxtin, Great England

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Added: Saturday, 13 December, 2008, 05:19 GMT 05:19 UK

Have you noticed that it used to be called global warming?

Now that they've discovered that it's not warming at all it suddenly becomes climate change.

I've got a better phrase - fraudulent taxation. And as usual the EU are right at the heart of it.

[chiptheduck], England, a suburb of Brussels

Dead right, and the cure is to hold the conferences in Siberia, rather than Rio and Kyoto. That would test the scientists integrity!

[Degreeofhope], Pretoria, South Africa

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1 Comments:

Anonymous Anoniem said...

Deze reactie is verwijderd door een blogbeheerder.

donderdag, februari 18, 2010  

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